Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Wales
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English-language pronunciations
Hi, just noticing that an @2A00:23C7:7C9B:AB01:859:8379:EBEB:EF99 anon is removing the IPA for English pronunciations? They argue there are potential American English pronounciations? I doubt Americans are even aware of many Welsh places, but if it is commonly used surely can be added or put into a note? Many articles have multiple pronunciations. They state because Welsh only has one pronunciation that, that, is the only one is needed as the rest of derivatives? So far they've done it to Gwynedd, Penrhyndeudraeth and Porthmadog. Although are there sources for any of these? These seem to be based on personal original research? DankJae 23:11, 4 January 2024 (UTC)
- I suspect the motivation may be more to promote a particular viewpoint rather than to build the encyclopaedia without bias. It may be helpful for this wikiproject to have a recent changes watchlist as is used by WP:YORK to make it easier for users to monitor articles for potentially disruptive edits. EdwardUK (talk) 04:51, 5 January 2024 (UTC)]
- I wish that IP would use talk pages. However, I think they have some knowledge of linguistics and have a point. They did it first at Ceredigion and were repeatedly reverted in a slow burn edit war until I opened a talk section and we reached a consensus that they can go. See Talk:Ceredigion#Pronunciation, but the tl;dr is that these pages are about the place, and what a reader of a page about Gwynedd, Ceredigion, Porthmadog, etc. wants to know about is the place. Where the words are Welsh, naturally any reader might be interested in how to pronounce the word, but they are not interested, and certainly not in the very first sentence, to know how the word is mispronounced elsewhere.
- And to get longwinded again (you can ignore this paragraph) IPA can very accurately represent a pronunciation, but pronunciations are coloured by dialect. Take /pɔːrθˈmædɒɡ/ for example, which is given as the English IPA of /pɔrθˈmadɔɡ/. Almost the same, and the differences come in the length of the o and a slight closed shift of the a from fully open. Except the English IPA guide does not offer the fully open a, except in the notes, where it suggests that, per the OED, the /a/ more closely reflects RP. So /a/ is not used because the writer of the IPA English page decided not to follow RP but another variant of English. American English perhaps? And then, what of that r? It is meant as an approximant in the IPA English guide, yet the guide admits this means it is really IPA /ɹ/. What is rendered is the IPA symbol for an alveolar trill, /r/, which is heard in a few English varieties but is definitely unusual in English. So that English rendering is, in any case, problematic. It doesn't belong there. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 08:20, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
- I'll just add a caveat to my comments. In some places an alternative pronunciation is so common that it may not be enough to list just the standard Welsh pronunciation. Aberystwyth is a case in point (but currently only has one pronunciation listed). These would need to be considered case by case. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 08:55, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
- @]
- I don't think there is an established alternative English pronunciation for Gwynedd and Penrhyndeudraeth. I personally would leave those alone. Porthmadog has an English alternative, not used much anymore, of Portmadoc. This is in the article, and could, presumably, be rendered in IPA too (although I don't really see the benefit to the reader of doing so). I would agree with the reversion on Powys, as there are two pronunciations there (although now it lists 3. We could pare back one). Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 13:53, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
- @]
- I'll just add a caveat to my comments. In some places an alternative pronunciation is so common that it may not be enough to list just the standard Welsh pronunciation. Aberystwyth is a case in point (but currently only has one pronunciation listed). These would need to be considered case by case. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 08:55, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
- @EdwardUK, That would be great although how do you set one up, looking at Yorkshire's I assume it is a manual watchlist of every related article and then funnelled through the related changes system? DankJae 14:03, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
- @DankJae: That is basically how it works. The lists are put together from all the pages tagged with the wikiproject template. Although, it would need updating occasionally to add any new articles to the list. I made one for Rugby league about a month ago based on their article assessment page and it seems to be working, once I had worked out a method it only took an hour or two to create it. I am usually busy over weekends but I should be able to put together one for Wales next week. EdwardUK (talk) 15:11, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
- That's a disappointing assumption, for my reasoning has been clear. I'm not sure what 'particular viewpoint' you think I have in mind. Also, some other assumption made about my edits I have disproven below, such as the matter of the breve when transcribing dipthongs (which is backed up by the already-existing article on dipthongs.
- Some of the contributions in this topic section display bad faith, I'm afraid. I feel that some of those who have contributed subscribe to the unfortunate assumption that to edit in a way that gives the Welsh langauge prominence in situations where it is merely logical is a 'Nationalist'.
- Anyway, I do accept, with thanks, that the vast majority are doing what they feel is right, but the tone here suggests that I am probably wasting my time. You shall all feel very relieved then when I tell you that I am done. 2A00:23C7:7C81:9001:79E4:CC96:47BF:D694 (talk) 18:20, 1 February 2024 (UTC)
I have questioned the IP on their Talk page but have had no response. Martinevans123 (talk) 13:33, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
- Still as an IP, their address may constantly change, in the period of this discussion it already has (but clearly the same person), so possibly they would edit under another ip address and not see the question? This does make monitoring their changes a bit more difficult unless someone has every county and place on their watchlist. DankJae 14:01, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
- Yes, of course. Just being optimistic! It geolocates to BT in London, likely static. Martinevans123 (talk) 14:07, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
- The address is an IPv6 one. In an IPv6 address the bottom 64 bits are not static as they are used for autoconfiguration. If the user has just a single /64 (the smallest range available in IPv6), then they are all addresses under 2A00:23C7:7C9B:AB01::/64. That is, that part of the number doesn't change, but the other part will - perhaps every time they switch off their device. That gives them a range of about 1.8x10^19 different addresses. If the user took one stride in the same direction for each of those addresses, they would run out of numbers when they reach the M25... not the one in London... the one in Sagittarius. Here are all their contributions to date: Special:Contributions/2A00:23C7:7C9B:AB01::/64 Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 15:44, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
- Ah right, so we can expect to see Welsh IPA changes for place names in Sagittarius before long! Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 15:53, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
- Oh it's being going on for a while, but based on some of their edit summaries seems their argument is just "Welsh pronunciation is the only correct one". Anyone into IPAs willing to look into them? What is the IPA policy anyway, seems a bit OR. DankJae 16:38, 7 January 2024 (UTC)
- I have been watching the user's edits. I have neither strong motivation either to assist or to revert. I would be reverting if they were blatantly wrong. There is a bit of disagreement over whether IPAs need references. IPA is phonetic spelling, and when there is a single unequivocal pronunciation of a Welsh word, spelling that word in IPA should not need a reference. Edits at MOS:DUALPRON. But my reason for not going in and making a bunch of changes is that - MOS or not - pages are meant to give knowledge to readers, and long discussions of various pronunciations do not belong in the first sentence of a lead of an article that is about a town. The article is not about dialect continua. Fingers crossed the IP doesn't do this all the way to Sagittarius (I am pretty sure the dialect beyond this star system is fairly unrecognisable - although I don't have a source for that). Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 18:12, 7 January 2024 (UTC)]
- I must admit I have had exactly the same reaction. But the big question - shouldn't en.wiki have English IPA guides, at least more prominently than Welsh IPA guides (which really belong at cy.wiki)? Martinevans123 (talk) 18:22, 7 January 2024 (UTC) Sagittarius Love Languages: An Expert-Backed Guide - all you need to know!
- The guideline for appropriate use is for inclusion when it would not be obvious from the spelling, in which case a source to verify the non-obvious could be reasonably expected, and if it is unambiguous then the pronunciation is not necessary. Should this apply equally whether the pronunciation is in Welsh or English then based on the edit summaries it could have been the Welsh that they removed. If in Gwynedd 65% of residents speak Welsh then a third do not, and the majority of these probably use English as would the national/local authorities and media when communicating with these non-Welsh speaking residents. This seems a reasonable proportion of the population for the articles to include an English IPA where appropriate. Those used for the administration within the area could be considered as the standard English and Welsh pronunciations, and if these are the same in both languages then why not mention this too. I am not convinced by the edit summary that a British-English pronunciation should be excluded because people on the other side of the Atlantic, few of whom may have ever heard of the place in question, may use an dialect that causes it to sound different, but if the IP has sources for multiple other English-language variations (or maybe even Patagonian Welsh alternatives?) then rather than removing content these could be added and placed in a footnote as in the examples in ]
The guideline for appropriate use is for inclusion when it would not be obvious from the spelling, in which case a source to verify the non-obvious could be reasonably expected
. This is the case for non obvious pronunciations of English language placenames, certainly.WP:BLUESKY. The IPA template itself links to the pronunciation guide, so that is not required, and the only other reference that would make any sense would be something like "Teach yourself Welsh" and that is unecessary. We don't reference spellings. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 08:25, 8 January 2024 (UTC)]
- I have to say I tend to agree that there is only one correct pronunciation for most Welsh names. Deb (talk) 16:02, 1 February 2024 (UTC)
- I have been watching the user's edits. I have neither strong motivation either to assist or to revert. I would be reverting if they were blatantly wrong. There is a bit of disagreement over whether IPAs need references. IPA is phonetic spelling, and when there is a single unequivocal pronunciation of a Welsh word, spelling that word in IPA should not need a reference. Edits at
- Oh it's being going on for a while, but based on some of their edit summaries seems their argument is just "Welsh pronunciation is the only correct one". Anyone into IPAs willing to look into them? What is the IPA policy anyway, seems a bit OR. DankJae 16:38, 7 January 2024 (UTC)
- Ah right, so we can expect to see Welsh IPA changes for place names in Sagittarius before long! Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 15:53, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
- The address is an IPv6 one. In an IPv6 address the bottom 64 bits are not static as they are used for autoconfiguration. If the user has just a single /64 (the smallest range available in IPv6), then they are all addresses under 2A00:23C7:7C9B:AB01::/64. That is, that part of the number doesn't change, but the other part will - perhaps every time they switch off their device. That gives them a range of about 1.8x10^19 different addresses. If the user took one stride in the same direction for each of those addresses, they would run out of numbers when they reach the M25... not the one in London... the one in Sagittarius. Here are all their contributions to date: Special:Contributions/2A00:23C7:7C9B:AB01::/64 Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 15:44, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
- Yes, of course. Just being optimistic! It geolocates to BT in London, likely static. Martinevans123 (talk) 14:07, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
Seems they've tried to remove Anglesey's IPA entirely. Still not convinced by their edits. If the argument is that Welsh is already phonetic, tbh that actually means there is less reason for the Welsh IPA if those more familiar with the language, do not even need it. But I'd say verified English IPAs should stay, rather than based on personal use as in the end, I don't think there is a IPA exception to
]- They were rightly reverted on Anglesey. I think the way Wikipedia presents IPA may be leading to a misunderstanding. Apologies if I am wrong on that I am about to state the obvious. But for the avoidance of doubt, there is no Welsh IPA that is different from English IPA. There is simply IPA. It is a phonetic alphabet, and given a particular pronunciation of a word, there should only be one way to correctly describe it in IPA.
- The Welsh pronunciation guide that links from Welsh IPA spellings merely points to the specific IPA sounds that are found in Welsh. The English pronunciation guide, however, is misleading because there is a greater dialect continuum and the guide can mislead the reader as to what sound is represented by a letter (/r/ being a case in point). Ideally you would simply link to an IPA guide (such as: International Phonetic Alphabet#/media/File:IPA chart 2020.svg ). But we don't want to bog down readers with all that information, so these pronunciation guides have developed to simplify things. The English guide simplifies at the expense of accuracy. But again, there is a single IPA. Given a word with a single standard Welsh pronunciation, and no English alternative (e.g. Aberdyfi, which has an English spelling but the same pronunciation) then we should put the IPA in to tell a reader how to pronounce it. One IPA, for the one correct pronunciation. And I say that knowing full well that the Aberdyfi article doesn't do that. For some reason we have an unsourced and very subtly incorrect "English" IPA, partly because the English pronunciation guide favours a particular flavour of English that is not RP and partly because someone has mistaken an open mid back vowel for the schwa, or else, for that syllable, has favoured RP over other flavours of English![1] Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 21:04, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
- Still uncomfortable with the idea "one correct pronunciation", what if locals have a local pronunciation that diverges from Welsh phonology. I know Rhos and Clwyd (Welsh-derived words) are pronounced differently depending where in Wales you are, so still concerned with this "Welsh alphabet" first standard, although, overall, yes few have sources either. Still don't like the idea how local pronunciations in English and Welsh may be mass-removed for the "only correct way". Like yes you mention a "single standard Welsh pronunciation" but if that existed then why are these edits happening suddenly and widely? Surely the standard should've already been there, but there was another one added by someone else.
- Once again, the editor in question isn't using the argument "no English alternative", but "it is not needed". I am not really questioning their edits to the Welsh IPA tbh, but the removal of others and with no citations to confirm the new or the old was correct.
- Finally there is the assumption English-speakers in Wales pronounce the Welsh names correctly, and while they likely do, the uncited and wide-ranging edits do not make me trust it. May be if possible instead of changing the existing IPA, but a theoretically standard one (in line with the Welsh alphabet) is added before it? DankJae 22:17, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
- Indeed there are many varieties of Welsh English, such as Cardiff English, etc., where standard English or standard Welsh pronunciations do not apply. But I guess there might be many non-English speakers who come here to see how to pronounce Welsh place names in English? Martinevans123 (talk) 15:59, 15 January 2024 (UTC)
- Plus I keep seeing the IP add "u̯" which isn't even in Help:IPA/Welsh, so there goes accuracy. DankJae 14:14, 16 January 2024 (UTC)
- Hello, the purpose of the mark such as that in "au̯" is to show that the vowels are not sounded separately (as two syllables) but rather form a single unit (a diphthong, which is also a single syllable). Really, the Welsh IPA page should note this. Look at the IPA guide pages for other languages which also have similar dipthongs, sucH as Finnish, and you will see the same mark. 2A00:23C7:7C81:9001:59DC:F6CC:E84C:1008 (talk) 00:21, 1 February 2024 (UTC)
- Best discuss there whether to add it there, before adding contradictory IPAs, in the end this is about Welsh not Finnish. DankJae 01:39, 1 February 2024 (UTC)
- I am not suggesting that Welsh follows the IPA for Finnish or indeed any other language, but rather that this is the convention when transcribing dipthongs (including for Welsh). I will look for sourceable material to show this in any case, as I understand that to those not acquainted with IPA, it might look like I am following my own instinct (which I assure that I am not). Best wishes 2A00:23C7:7C81:9001:59DC:F6CC:E84C:1008 (talk) 08:52, 1 February 2024 (UTC)
- Just saying best raise a discussion at Help talk:IPA/Welsh to add that symbol before putting it into articles. Readers now see that symbol but aren't explained what it means on the IPA page, so confusing. DankJae 13:56, 1 February 2024 (UTC)
- Thank you, I shall do that.
- You will also see that in the article on dipthongsthe following sentence:
- "The non-syllabic diacritic, the inverted breve below ⟨◌̯⟩, is placed under the less prominent part of a diphthong to show that it is part of a diphthong rather than a vowel in a separate syllable: [aɪ̯ aʊ̯]".
- I hope that you will now see that I am indeed following a recognised convention for IPA transcription. 2A00:23C7:7C81:9001:79E4:CC96:47BF:D694 (talk) 17:47, 1 February 2024 (UTC)
- Hello 2A00:23C7:7C81:9001:59DC:F6CC:E84C:1008. Are you in any way related to 2A00:23C7:7C9B:AB01::/64? Martinevans123 (talk) 14:11, 1 February 2024 (UTC)
- @Martinevans123, while their edits are not appearing under that IP range, both as under the same partial block, and both involved with Penparcau. DankJae 14:40, 1 February 2024 (UTC)
- Quelle surprise. Martinevans123 (talk) 14:44, 1 February 2024 (UTC)
- There's nothing I can click and see there sorry, so I can't tell you. 2A00:23C7:7C81:9001:79E4:CC96:47BF:D694 (talk) 18:11, 1 February 2024 (UTC)
- Try 2A00:23C7:7C9B:AB01:181B:4B17:AC6F:6D12, for example? Thanks Martinevans123 (talk) 18:56, 1 February 2024 (UTC)
- @Martinevans123, while their edits are not appearing under that IP range, both as under the same partial block, and both involved with Penparcau. DankJae 14:40, 1 February 2024 (UTC)
- Just saying best raise a discussion at Help talk:IPA/Welsh to add that symbol before putting it into articles. Readers now see that symbol but aren't explained what it means on the IPA page, so confusing. DankJae 13:56, 1 February 2024 (UTC)
- I am not suggesting that Welsh follows the IPA for Finnish or indeed any other language, but rather that this is the convention when transcribing dipthongs (including for Welsh). I will look for sourceable material to show this in any case, as I understand that to those not acquainted with IPA, it might look like I am following my own instinct (which I assure that I am not). Best wishes 2A00:23C7:7C81:9001:59DC:F6CC:E84C:1008 (talk) 08:52, 1 February 2024 (UTC)
- Best discuss there whether to add it there, before adding contradictory IPAs, in the end this is about Welsh not Finnish. DankJae 01:39, 1 February 2024 (UTC)
- Hello, the purpose of the mark such as that in "au̯" is to show that the vowels are not sounded separately (as two syllables) but rather form a single unit (a diphthong, which is also a single syllable). Really, the Welsh IPA page should note this. Look at the IPA guide pages for other languages which also have similar dipthongs, sucH as Finnish, and you will see the same mark. 2A00:23C7:7C81:9001:59DC:F6CC:E84C:1008 (talk) 00:21, 1 February 2024 (UTC)
- Plus I keep seeing the IP add "u̯" which isn't even in Help:IPA/Welsh, so there goes accuracy. DankJae 14:14, 16 January 2024 (UTC)
- What you're talking about, I think, is dialect. For example, round this area, it's common for names with "oes" at the end of them, e.g. "Treoes", "Tan-y-Groes", to be pronounced as if they were English, with a long "o", but I'm not sure that being mispronounced by Welsh people makes it okay. Deb (talk) 18:43, 1 February 2024 (UTC)
- Indeed there are many varieties of Welsh English, such as Cardiff English, etc., where standard English or standard Welsh pronunciations do not apply. But I guess there might be many non-English speakers who come here to see how to pronounce Welsh place names in English? Martinevans123 (talk) 15:59, 15 January 2024 (UTC)
There is a discussion at Talk:Ceredigion#Pronunciation 2 concerning an English pronunciation. DankJae 08:22, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
- There is now a discussion at Talk:Llandudno#English IPA concerning its pronunciation. I have a feeling that this issue isn't going away and that we now may have to consider banning English pronunciations on Welsh names if they're continuously being in dispute. DankJae 10:49, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
- Also Talk:Merthyr Tydfil#Pronunciation. DankJae 10:55, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
- I don't think that anybody is calling for the abolition of the English pronunciations necessarily, but rather a consistent approach? They're all over the place at the moment. For example, as stated there, the IPA for 'Merthyr' currently states that is pronounced rhotically, i.e. that the 'r' is prounounced in both instances. This is clearly not the case., regardless of the citation.
- Having read the above discussion(s), it seems that the logic of including an English pronunciation is that it at least gives something for those not conversant in Welsh to work with. That is fair enough, I think, but when the IPA given is then inconsistent or indeed simply misleading - to what avail? Another question is which pronunciation is favoured when there are many English pronunciations in circulation? The Welsh obviously avoids this as there is much less variation in the standard pronunciation, with it being a phonemic orthography. The exception maybe is the difference between [ɨ] and [iː] in the North and South, i.e. such as in 'canu'. A trifling point compared with the inconsistency in the English pronunciations.
- I'm not saying that I have an answer, though. It is a thorny issue that seems to lead right back to the start ad infinitum! Llabbillob (talk) 11:09, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
- The reason why I started this discussion was because someone was removing all English-language pronunciations. Arguing "the English one is misleading/inaccurate/numerous/uncited" compared to (original/correct) phonetic Welsh, some argue the Welsh one is the only one needed.
- I only follow what citations give us, especially if the pronunciation has been disputed, because a lot of pronunciations are OR. I only added Merthyr's because this issue led to the previous IPA being removed entirely. So reinserted using sources.
- We can include multiple pronunciations, although for Merthyr only found two. If they're too many, they can be put into a footnote, or generalised into one variety based on Wikipedia's IPA guides (although leading to it differing from sources, subject to dispute). DankJae 11:30, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
- There are now two accounts created today removing English pronunciations, unless there is an agreement here, there seems there will be a backdoor ban on English language pronunciations on places in Wales, particularly those with Welsh names. New account 1 and new account 2 (although mainly Welsh names overall).
- Just a bit surprised how all of a sudden there is a collective campaign against English-language pronunciations. Seems everyone is tired of disputing, so easier to propose a guideline against English-language pronunciations? DankJae 18:06, 25 May 2024 (UTC)
- I'm not an expert in the intricacies of IPA markup, but the latest edits seem to be happening on names of places in the Welsh speaking heartlands, where there is likely to be a common pronounciation regardless of your mother tongue. However, there are clear differences in several places, particularly in the areas of Wales where Welsh speakers are less common, where the common pronounciation does not follow Welsh phonetics and has been 'anglicised' in some way. I can think of places like Llanedeyrn, Caerau, Magor and Slebech off the top of my head. The English language Wikipedia shouldn't be a place to enforce Welsh language phonetics only ...if that is what the IPs are trying to do. Sionk (talk) 20:02, 25 May 2024 (UTC)
- Well this discussion, as well as at Ceredigion, led to no consensus or supporting the status quo of removing the English pronunciation.
- The initial other IP which sparked this discussion edited outside the Welsh-speaking heartlands, so not always limited to them.
- I agree that more eastern parts diverge, which is why I express concern on the Welsh pronunciation only approach, even if its likely the most accurate and used, as there are variations on Rhos for example. However with English-language pronunciations slowly being removed, and with no guideline for/against them, and that many lack citations in the first place, not sure if they should all be restored or removed. Nonetheless, seems that if nothing is agreed, slowly IPs would remove them all. DankJae 22:07, 25 May 2024 (UTC)
- another IP removal of the English pronuncation,
any pronunciation other than the Welsh one is simply incorrect.
DankJae 21:49, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
- another IP removal of the English pronuncation,
- I'm not an expert in the intricacies of IPA markup, but the latest edits seem to be happening on names of places in the Welsh speaking heartlands, where there is likely to be a common pronounciation regardless of your mother tongue. However, there are clear differences in several places, particularly in the areas of Wales where Welsh speakers are less common, where the common pronounciation does not follow Welsh phonetics and has been 'anglicised' in some way. I can think of places like Llanedeyrn, Caerau, Magor and Slebech off the top of my head. The English language Wikipedia shouldn't be a place to enforce Welsh language phonetics only ...if that is what the IPs are trying to do. Sionk (talk) 20:02, 25 May 2024 (UTC)
UK county flags discussion
A discussion has been opened at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject UK geography#County flags: discussion 1 concerning the UK county flags, which you are welcome to participate in. Thanks, A.D.Hope (talk) 11:19, 10 March 2024 (UTC)
Wales WRU Executive Board
I saw what @
- I wouldn't know where to start, so I'll just ask a question - are these roles that might change their titles frequently over time, or are they very well-established? Deb (talk) 09:16, 21 March 2024 (UTC)
- OK, you raised a good question. After doing some research it seems the positions have changed name slightly over the past decade or so, but now there is some stability in the Chairman, CEO, member of the Professional Rugby Board (PRB). Here are some links about appointments on the WRU website, WRU board and Executive board. Perhaps these pages explain the set up now, but @Deb: is right, for how long are the exact names of the roles allocated for...? But I think the Executive Board set up is well enough explained to elaborate in an article. Cltjames (talk) 14:04, 21 March 2024 (UTC)
- I'd have no problem with that, though I'm unlikely to be able to be of much assistance. Deb (talk) 14:24, 21 March 2024 (UTC)
- After inspecting most of the other top tier playing rugby nations for comparison, it seems only Wales has a president list. Then, New Zealand Rugby and Rugby Australia are the only other articles that have included any mention of an executive list of board members. Rugby Australia has a potentially good article in creating a central hub for all rugby purposes, whilst New Zealand rugby have created a good Patron and Officers section with a table showing the personnel. Any ideas on what Wales' WRU could do better explain the corporate set up. I feel Welsh Rugby Union article is similar to the Australian and All Black articles I linked in showing the set up. But, there is a lot more that could be done for the Welsh article to better show the corporate structure for regions and women's game, as well as then the executive board set up, then also perhaps a table similar to the New Zealand article? Cltjames (talk) 15:18, 21 March 2024 (UTC)
- Probabaly best expanding/creating "governance" at the Welsh Rugby Union article (combining the principals list?), and if the tables or other things from the AU or NZ articles can improve it then be free to base an expansion on those articles as a guide, and better to try to see if it works. Not into rugby, but be free to raise it on the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Rugby union, unless someone into Welsh rugby also replies here. DankJae 12:45, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
- After inspecting most of the other top tier playing rugby nations for comparison, it seems only Wales has a president list. Then, New Zealand Rugby and Rugby Australia are the only other articles that have included any mention of an executive list of board members. Rugby Australia has a potentially good article in creating a central hub for all rugby purposes, whilst New Zealand rugby have created a good Patron and Officers section with a table showing the personnel. Any ideas on what Wales' WRU could do better explain the corporate set up. I feel Welsh Rugby Union article is similar to the Australian and All Black articles I linked in showing the set up. But, there is a lot more that could be done for the Welsh article to better show the corporate structure for regions and women's game, as well as then the executive board set up, then also perhaps a table similar to the New Zealand article? Cltjames (talk) 15:18, 21 March 2024 (UTC)
- I'd have no problem with that, though I'm unlikely to be able to be of much assistance. Deb (talk) 14:24, 21 March 2024 (UTC)
- OK, you raised a good question. After doing some research it seems the positions have changed name slightly over the past decade or so, but now there is some stability in the Chairman, CEO, member of the Professional Rugby Board (PRB). Here are some links about appointments on the WRU website, WRU board and Executive board. Perhaps these pages explain the set up now, but @Deb: is right, for how long are the exact names of the roles allocated for...? But I think the Executive Board set up is well enough explained to elaborate in an article. Cltjames (talk) 14:04, 21 March 2024 (UTC)
Community locator maps
Hi all, over the past month I have since created a svg map of every (I think) local government community in Wales listed under Commons Category:Locator maps of communities in Wales. With progress tracked at its talk.
I may slowly add them all to articles here (plus Wikidata), although help adding them would be appreciated, if anyone is interested. @Sionk:, sorry to duplicate some of your great maps, which I adopted its orange scheme.
I have created all maps from the 2010 Nilfanion's files, then manually updated those that (appear to) have changed since, with 2024 versions. If they have changed, "2010" and "2024" were added to the beginning of the file's names. I am confused if Torfaen and Vale had boundary changes?? They appear very minor.
The names for the communities in the 2010 files were derived from Nilfanion's 2010 files, and the 2024 names were the ones from Ordnance Survey, they may not automatically match the names of articles here, and hopefully have no typos. Although I removed full stops and apotrophes from "St. David's" etc, so "St Davids" (I think).
Please raise any mistakes/typos I have made. Diolch DankJae 15:32, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
- Looks like a lot of work, you've made a rod for your own back :) Glad you followed through consistently with the orange (as opposed to the red for electoral wards) ...which I'm pretty sure I copied from some pre-existing maps when I created some new community locator maps following previous boundary changes. I'm unaware of a boundary review this year, so in my opinion it would have made more sense to name the files after the year of the boundary changes - there seems to have been a widespread review in 2016, for example. Quite a number of communities in Wales are very small and I expect they'll hardly be visible at the size of a map in a article infobox (particularly with Powys) - I'm not a fan of Nilfanion's base maps (there's a lot of wasted space on some of them) and cropped my versions as much as possible to maximise the visibility of the communities. But hey-ho, have fun. Sionk (talk) 19:36, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
- Only named them 2024 because they're up to date as of now, a few counties had multiple reviews since 2010 so would've had to make multiple versions, which is not as needed as many just need a up to date map first, and rarely see the reviews discussed for any needed intermediate maps. Understand any issues with Nilfanion's spacing, but only used those for consistency, style and ease, and still learning how to convert the OS data to map form. Yes Powys' are a bit large.
- In the end, just want all of them to at least have a map, so focused on making them as quick and consistently as possible. Any new round of new versions will at least be much more slower, and smaller volume, allowing more time for any tweaks. Although I wish there were an easier and quicker way to batch upload to commons, as tbh that is where most of my time was spent.
- Also I think I also saw green used for electoral wards? So seems to be a clash. Nonetheless, as per UKGEO, they're discussing whether wards are presumed notable themselves (discussion leaning to they aren't), so probably not worth the effort, in making every individual ward maps IMO for now (except Wrexham, because I already made them years ago :/), maybe county-wide ones, with labels and/or results. We'll see. DankJae 21:28, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
- Definitely communities are the priority, we can all agree on that. Sionk (talk) 22:31, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
- I am wondering how should I add them. Currently trying Anglesey, and for example at Holyhead added it in the second image parameter in the {{infobox UK place}}, but now it has basically two maps. Prefer a {{switcher}} between the two, displaying only one at a time, but that seems not workable. For many of these the "community" is as important so would prefer if it were in the infobox, but it seems I'll have to move it to the body of the article? Comments? DankJae 12:45, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
- Definitely communities are the priority, we can all agree on that. Sionk (talk) 22:31, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
Tŷ Coryton
There's an irritating gap here, Registered historic parks and gardens in Cardiff, where there should be an image of the gardens/grounds of Coryton House. I can find nothing suitable in Commons, or at Geograph. Google suggests that the site, now Tŷ Coryton special school, is virtually surrounded by development - superstore/hotel to the N, residential to the E - but with the trainline, the canal and a nature reserve to the S. It also looks well-wooded. I've no idea if a photograph from public land/the highway is possible. If any Cardiff-based editor has the time/inclination to find out, I'd be very grateful. KJP1 (talk) 07:52, 31 March 2024 (UTC)
- @KJP1 I imagine you've already looked here and decided it's not suitable? I don't even know for sure that these are in the gardens of the house, but you could maybe contact the copyright holder. Deb (talk) 08:21, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
- @Deb - Thank you very much. I'd not actually thought to look there. And the orchids are very pretty! I may well see about contacting the holder. Oddly, neither Coflein nor Cadw hold any images either. Cadw is less surprising, but RCAHMW has a very extensive image archive so that is more so. If all else fails, I shall force my aged, Welsh-resident, mother to get her Box Brownie out. Thanks again. KJP1 (talk) 12:18, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
Monmouthshire
I've been doing a bit on the Monmouthshire article, taking the GA-assessed Pembrokeshire, Carmarthenshire, and Ceredigion as models. It still needs expansion (particularly the History/Geology) and a fair amount of polishing. But I'd be grateful for any thoughts on obvious gaps. Are there elements/features of the county that should be included, but currently aren't. I'd also be interested in any thoughts on the infobox image. Currently, it's got one, as have Pembrokeshire etc. But some of the English counties, e.g. Somerset, Gloucestershire, have rather nice multiple images. What would one choose, if trying to represent the county in 3-5 pictures? KJP1 (talk) 12:18, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
- @England's version. So usually 3 images. As done for Anglesey, Denbighshire and I did for Torfaen, and slowly doing the rest, leaving the GAs for last, aiming for a discussion for those. I did mention this at Talk:Monmouthshire, so happy to give my ideas, and encourage anyone else to give their's too.
- In terms of the general article, will look if I notice anything missing or if I can help. DankJae 12:47, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
- DankJae - much appreciated. I'm pretty clueless as to the MoS on this, and on much else, so very happy to go with a convention of 3. So, how to sum up Monmouthshire in 3 shots? The usual internet searches give you Tintern Abbey, Chepstow Castle and Raglan Castle as the "top 3 attractions" but that'd give a very medieval-buildings focus to the IB! I'd be most grateful for any suggestions. And thanks for casting your eye over the wider article. Hope you're keeping well. KJP1 (talk) 12:51, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
- It’s simply a project guideline, someone was adding 7 images on the northern counties, and there was once 15 added to Merseyside, which is clearly too many so called a discussion to set a number and most preferred similarity with England’s.
- In terms of the actual images, in the end that’s fully subjective. You can be free to decide your own or prompt a discussion for a longer-standing selection.
- When I decide them, I usually base them on four criteria, geographic representation, image quality/looks, defining feature of the county (is the county known for a World Heritage Site, for being coastal etc) and fitting in the infobox (usually requiring one vertical for it to fit). Some in England also use a cultural aspect for example a notable breed of animal. DankJae 14:39, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
- That's very helpful. I have gone through many of the Monmouthshire pages running the "Good images" search, but there is so much mis-categorisation, it's easy to miss things. I think my personal preferences would be for one of Tintern, Chepstow or Raglan; then one panorama- probably from the Kymin, although I can't find any good ones; and you could as well argue for the Sugarloaf or the Skirrid - although they don't have any Good images either; and then something else. But what I'm not sure. KJP1 (talk) 14:50, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
- Yeah constantly scrolling through the most obscure commons categories (usually every community), then popping onto Flickr, Geograph and Google Images with Creative Commons, looking for them, is tiring.
- Maybe try a mock up of them, sometimes I like a selection of places but when put together the images clash so sometimes still have to make adjustments. DankJae 15:46, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
- That's very helpful. I have gone through many of the Monmouthshire pages running the "Good images" search, but there is so much mis-categorisation, it's easy to miss things. I think my personal preferences would be for one of Tintern, Chepstow or Raglan; then one panorama- probably from the Kymin, although I can't find any good ones; and you could as well argue for the Sugarloaf or the Skirrid - although they don't have any Good images either; and then something else. But what I'm not sure. KJP1 (talk) 14:50, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
- DankJae - much appreciated. I'm pretty clueless as to the MoS on this, and on much else, so very happy to go with a convention of 3. So, how to sum up Monmouthshire in 3 shots? The usual internet searches give you Tintern Abbey, Chepstow Castle and Raglan Castle as the "top 3 attractions" but that'd give a very medieval-buildings focus to the IB! I'd be most grateful for any suggestions. And thanks for casting your eye over the wider article. Hope you're keeping well. KJP1 (talk) 12:51, 12 April 2024 (UTC)