Talk:Arab citizens of Israel

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Requested move 21 March 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: No consensus (non-admin closure) microbiologyMarcus [petri dish·growths] 20:38, 5 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Arab citizens of Israel → Palestinian Arab citizens of Israel – Following the even votes at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Palestinian citizens of Israel, the discussion was closed as merge. That article had been created as an outcome of another even vote at Talk:Arab citizens of Israel/Archive 8#Requested move 27 October 2021, which talked about a refactoring of the content if the name was changed. Implementing this merge will result in such a refactoring. Onceinawhile (talk) 16:19, 21 March 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. Bensci54 (talk) 16:53, 28 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • Oppose Doesn’t that deny a significant amount of arguments from the original thread, being that there is strong but not complete overlap? As the current title is broader and encompasses all, it’s preferable. FortunateSons (talk) 11:26, 22 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. Current title is broader and better. Palestinian Arabs are Arabs, ergo are included under the current implied scope. Why exclude the fraction of Israeli Arabs that are not or do not identify as Palestinian? Why should the page be rescoped? Srnec (talk) 03:25, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment It seems the only way to fix up somewhat contradictory closes is for each subgroup of "Arab citizens of Israel" (which in truth is nothing more than an Israeli invention) to have its own article (some already do), so this one should have all the material that has nothing to do with Palestinian citizens of Israel removed from it and be renamed.Selfstudier (talk) 11:00, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. Not all Israeli Arabs self-identify as Palestinian, yet all identify as Arab. Marokwitz (talk) 11:08, 24 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose Clearly an NPOV violation as not all Arabs identify as Palestinian. As I've suggested before, if people want an article on Arabs with Israeli citizenship who identify as Palestinian, that could be legitimately forked to
    Palestinian identity in Israel. Number 57 13:06, 24 March 2024 (UTC)[reply
    ]
  • Comment The real problem here is that the current title is Israeli POV and thus violates
    WP:POVNAME
    . This can be credibly sourced without difficulty, viz:

...what label should be attached to them? Much more than merely semantics is at stake. how one chooses to identify the Arab minority in israel is often indicative of one’s politics. Supporters of israel generally refer to the Arab community in Israel as "Israeli Arabs" or "Arab Israelis" – using the terms commonly used by Israeli governments, the Hebrew-language media in Israel, and most Israeli Jews. Critics of israel, by contrast, tend to describe Israel’s Arab citizens simply as Palestinians or Palestinian Arabs. in doing so, they emphasize the Palestinian national identity of the Arab population in Israel and clearly reject the Israeli state’s longstanding avoidance of that label.Which, if any, of these names is correct? Are Arabs in Israel "Israeli Arabs" or "Palestinian Arabs"? Are they Israelis or Palestinians? Ilan Peleg; Dov Waxman (2011). Israel's Palestinians: The Conflict Within (illustrated ed.). Cambridge University Press. p. 26.

ISBN 978-0-521-15702-5
.

Having said that, it is not clear that the current proposal is neutral either therefore I think we need to find a consensus via an RFC and not by an RM where editors are simply going to !vote their POV as is occurring here already.Selfstudier (talk) 11:17, 25 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That's a fair enough point – what would be a neutral term in your opinion? GnocchiFan (talk) 10:38, 28 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Atm, I am simply considering an RFC with question "Is the current title NPOV? If not, what would be an appropriate title?" Selfstudier (talk) 15:34, 28 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Relisting comment: There seems to be consensus that the current title may be NPOV but that the proposed title isn't better. Relisting to see if any NPOV titles are proposed. Bensci54 (talk) 16:53, 28 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support renaming to "Palestinian and Arab citizens of Israel" as a middle ground, which builds on the consensus of the AfD to merge the two articles. Also important to note that a quick google search reveals that "Palestinian citizens of Israel" shows 191k results, while "Arab citizens of Israel" shows 142k results. Aside from these search results, majority of "Arab Israelis" are Palestinians, so we are giving undue weight here to the minority of "Arab Israelis" who do not identify as Palestinian for whatever reason. Makeandtoss (talk) 20:11, 30 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Are some Palestinian citizens of Israel not Arabs? —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 21:01, 30 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Not that I can think of; but allegedly, some Arab citizens of Israel are not Palestinian, or at least they do not identify as such. Makeandtoss (talk) 08:21, 31 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It really depends how you define Arab. For example there are Palestinian Christians who came from Greece in the early 20th century, but now speak Arabic. Are they Arab Christians? Or Arabic-speaking Greek Christians? The more you discuss ethnicity and identity, the more you unravel what a load of meaningless drivel it all is – except that is, of course, for use in racist rhetoric.
Iskandar323 (talk) 08:41, 31 March 2024 (UTC)[reply
]
It's not really the issue, the Israeli POV simply classifies the population that is not Jewish as Arab, a practice that goes back to the Balfour Declaration ("existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine") and which then forms the basis for discrimination against that population. Selfstudier (talk) 10:22, 31 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think it's an important question here. We shouldn't use an article title saying "A and B" if A is a subset of B. That would be redundant and confusing to readers since it would imply a non-subset relationship. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 17:03, 31 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The more important thing is that "Arab citizens of Israel" is an Israeli invention and terminology, regardless of what subsets it contains. Selfstudier (talk) 17:12, 31 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The real problem is the merger, the arguments for which were born out of deep miscomprehension. As noted, "Israeli Arabs" is an Israeli administrative categorization; "Palestinian citizens of Israel" was a topic/page about identity. The merger will erase the page about identity in favour of maintaining only a page about the administrative term – a somewhat onerous erasure.
Iskandar323 (talk) 17:40, 31 March 2024 (UTC)[reply
]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Identity

Number 57 commented above that "I don't think anyone would have a problem with an article on

Palestinian identity in Israel". They must have forgotten the opposition to this exact proposal that they made 2.5 years ago (Talk:Palestinian citizens of Israel#Requested move 26 November 2021). Onceinawhile (talk) 14:34, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply
]

Requested move 16 April 2024

Arab citizens of Israel → Palestinian and Arab citizens of Israel – Per the smart suggestion from Keizers in the discussion above, this middle ground should address the concerns of both sides.

Many editors have put a lot of time into this debate over many years, so we would ask you not to vote until you have reviewed the following discussions:

Onceinawhile (talk) 14:28, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose, TBH this proposed change seems totally unnecessary. Umm, just this recent survey from November 2023 shows that only 8 percent of Israeli Arabs prioritize their "Palestinian identity" as the most important component of their personal identity. In contrast, 33 percent identify primarily with their "Israeli citizenship," 32 percent with their "Arab identity," and 23 percent with their "religious affiliation." Bottom line, I really fail to see the justification for the proposed renaming.
WP:GRAVEDANCING, etc ASUKITE 16:42, 29 May 2024 (UTC)[reply
]
Note for closer, this account is a blocked sock. Selfstudier (talk) 14:20, 27 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
As an additional note, they were not blocked at the time of the !vote - socks can only be struck and discounted if they made a duplicate !vote, or if their master was blocked at the time of the !vote. BilledMammal (talk) 14:22, 27 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Nevertheless, this vote should be fully discounted, struck or not. Selfstudier (talk) 14:26, 27 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
On what policy basis?
WP:SOCKSTRIKE does not apply here. BilledMammal (talk) 14:27, 27 April 2024 (UTC)[reply
]
Happy to leave it to the closer. No idea why anyone would wish to defend such accounts. Selfstudier (talk) 14:29, 27 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Because we have policy that we follow; if you want to change that I would likely support it, but at the moment as written it doesn’t support your claims. BilledMammal (talk) 14:31, 27 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
WP:IAR, you are defending the edits of blocked socks, end of. Selfstudier (talk) 14:35, 27 April 2024 (UTC)[reply
]
Policy tells us when we can strike blocked socks; we don’t need IAR because we have clear policy, and if you want to expand that I encourage you to open a discussion proposing doing so. BilledMammal (talk) 14:37, 27 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Struck or not, I am making it clear what I think of such edits. Selfstudier (talk) 14:50, 27 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm confused - they are a blocked sock, no? Socks that were already blocked wouldn't be able to post. We typically go back and remove or strike content where it's by a sock. I'm not aware of a rule that a sock master has to first be blocked once and then we only delete or strike subsequently blocked puppets. From the get-go, this was a socking user.
Iskandar323 (talk) 15:27, 27 April 2024 (UTC)[reply
]
They were socking from the start, so they were socking at the time of this – and we don't reward socking.
Iskandar323 (talk) 15:22, 27 April 2024 (UTC)[reply
]
@
Iskandar323 (talk) 15:24, 27 April 2024 (UTC)[reply
]
We’re not rewarding it - as far as I can, this is their only vote in this discussion?
And the policy telling us when we can revert and strike is
WP:BRV. BilledMammal (talk) 15:33, 27 April 2024 (UTC)[reply
]
But it seems that
Iskandar323 (talk) 15:47, 27 April 2024 (UTC)[reply
]
SOCKSTRIKE is an essay (I linked the wrong thing above), but even it doesn’t appear to discuss contributions that are not block violations and are not double !voting (It is done to alleviate the disruption/deception caused by abusing multiple accounts.) BilledMammal (talk) 15:50, 27 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It is nevertheless an essay on the conduct policy, and it states: In discussions such as WP:AFD, RFCs or other !voting discussion, you should strike their [(socks)] contributions using one of several available methods. [...] The goal is to make it obvious they are a sock so when the discussion is closed, their input will not be considered. This should be done for all blocked sockpuppets and sockmasters in a discussion.
Iskandar323 (talk) 16:14, 27 April 2024 (UTC)[reply
]
Oppose, I agree with the comment above me. The population this article is about are known best as the Arab citizens of Israel. Some of them see themselves as Palestinian, but not most. The article should talk about all the different parts of their identity, but the title shouldn't favor one (and in this case, not the most common) over the others. Galamore (talk) 06:32, 17 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose The proposed title is unnecessarily duplicative as Palestinians are Arabs. And the claim that this is a middle ground is not true – the two "extremes" of how to describe this group are "Israeli Arabs" on one side or "Palestinians" on the other. The current title is the neutral middle ground that avoids either adjective. Number 57 08:03, 17 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment As I said in the last one, it is pointless to argue with a pro Israeli POV blockade and we should proceed directly to RFC on the title neutrality, which is the actual problem here. Selfstudier (talk) 13:09, 17 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Strong support as per the evidence showing that Palestinian citizens of Israel is an extremely common name in RS; the fact that there are Arab citizens of Israel who are not or do not identify as Palestinian interlaps; and so the two should be merged. Makeandtoss (talk) 14:44, 18 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose Given that reliable sources most frequently call them Arab citizens of Israel, not Palestinian. Noah 💬 21:44, 19 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support, per sources below which suggest there is a broad range of names used for them. BilledMammal (talk) 14:25, 21 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose there are far too many "exceptions" to state that the article should be Palestinians in Israel, rather than the true and neutral, "Arabs in Israel" or "Israeli Arabs." Sir Joseph (talk) 01:27, 22 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support as better than the current title, if the scope of the article is going to cover both Palestinian and non-Palestinian Arabs in Israel. We can have an article about Palestinians in Israel; we can have two articles, one about Palestinians in Israel and one about non-Palestinian Arabs in Israel; we can have an article that covers both Palestinian and non-Palestinian Arabs in Israel; what we cannot have is an article about Palestinians in Israel that doesn't call them "Palestinians," as that would be denying Palestinian identity, and I think, based on the sources in the RFC below, not following NPOV. I'm not sure that one article about Palestinian and Arab citizens of Israel is the best arrangement, but the proposed title is better for than the current title if we're going to have one article for both groups. Levivich (talk) 02:58, 22 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support per Levivich and others in this and post discussions. It's inappropriate to pigeonhole identity, and here specifically to pigeonhole it into the POV terminology of the Israeli state while denying other aspects of the identity of the group in question: here most notably their Palestinian-ness. It was fine before the merge discussion, but given its passage, the state of affairs that is now confronted is the imposition of a fairly egregious POV framing on a diverse set of identities of a range of ethnic groups. As it stands, the title imply that the subject is solely about the internal Israeli demographic categorisation of its "Arab" citizens regardless of whether they identify as Arab or not. That might be ok if the article was solely about Israeli POV categorisation of non-Jewish demographics in Israel, but it is not, because A) there is a broader topic of identity at work, and B) because we don't aim for POV topic framings. The broad subject here is a very loose demographic grouping of ethnicities, from Druze through to mixed city Arabs/Palestinians through to Bedouins – a topic that includes both other, alternative categorisations of the group, as well as their self-identification.
Iskandar323 (talk) 03:56, 22 April 2024 (UTC)[reply
]

Oppose as per ElLuzDelSur, Galamore, Noah and Sir Joseph. GidiD (talk) 07:13, 22 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • Oppose pretty pointless. Palestinians are Arabs, they are included under the current title. Super Ψ Dro 12:06, 23 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
By the way, why is not the more natural and standard
Arabs in Israel considered? This is the standard for all ethnic groups in Wikipedia, except for Jews, but including Arabs (Arabs in Turkey, Arabs in France, etc.). I looked into the talk page's archives and I don't see this having been discussed, at least in a formal RM, in a long time, though maybe I missed it. Super Ψ Dro 12:12, 23 April 2024 (UTC)[reply
]
Good idea if that also allows Palestinians in Israel (interesting disambig). Selfstudier (talk) 12:44, 23 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Depends on your definition. Some Palestinian Christians for example are recently departed Greek Orthodox groups from Turkey. Are they 'Arabs' purely by virtue of now speaking Arabic? The definitions of 'Arab' vary wildly from purely linguistic conceptions through to flawed race science-y stuff imagining all 'Arabs' as somehow genetically connected to the Arab conquests.
Iskandar323 (talk) 15:16, 23 April 2024 (UTC)[reply
]
Those are likely a very small fraction of the population. They are not mentioned nor given attention by media outlets. This article's lead itself only mentions Arabic-speaking Arabs following Christianity, Islam or Druzism. And those groups likely do not suffer the same social situation as Arabs do in Israel. In fact I would imagine, though I don't know much about the matter, that Christian and specially Druze Arabs are not treated very differently from Jewish citizens. Saying this because much of the discussiong regarding the article, its title and content seems to be related to the social situation among the groups inside Israel. So why should we weight these Greeks or other groups in the area like Armenians or Assyrians for determining this article's title? Super Ψ Dro 17:01, 23 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The majority weight is Palestinian (or Muslim if you prefer), the "Arab" emphasis is Israeli POV in this case, see below RFC. Selfstudier (talk) 17:06, 23 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose The proposed renaming does not align with
    WP:TITLE which emphasizes concise titles. All Palestinians are Arabs ("are culturally and linguistically Arab" as defined in Palestinians), and the suggested title change does not reflect a concise or clearer alternative. Marokwitz (talk) 20:38, 23 April 2024 (UTC)[reply
    ]
Support Some of these Israeli citizens are clearly not Arab, regardless of how one defines that term, and, even if they are a small number, it is crude in the extreme to label them all 'Arabs' regardless of ethnicity. Also a growing number of those who are broadly Arab, choose to identify specifically as Palestinian - regardless of how the Israeli state, the dominant ethnic group, or Israeli institutions feel about it. Again it is a crude political bludgeon, to deny that specific identity and impose one that suits the mythology of the dominant ethnic group. This is a good compromise of competing arguments in previous discussions.Pincrete (talk) 05:00, 26 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ Rudnitzky, Arik (December 3, 2023). "In-depth Survey of Arab Society's Views on the War between Israel and Hamas". Moshe Dayan Center for Middle Eastern and African Studies. (Full report).
  2. ^ Philologos (pen name) (23 June 2021). ""Israeli Arabs," "Palestinian Citizens of Israel," or "Israeli Palestinians"?". Mosaic. Retrieved 6 March 2024.
Note: WikiProject Palestine, WikiProject Israel, WikiProject Arab world, and WikiProject Ethnic groups have been notified of this discussion. RodRabelo7 (talk) 09:45, 26 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Ha, ha, ha! This made me laugh. Oppose of course. All of the citizens of Israel are Palestine citizens. So let's not make more confusion there. But a nice try though. :) With regards, Oleg Y. (talk) 01:55, 30 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

RFC

Is the current title NPOV? (Edit, change to POV from NPOV since all the answers are the other way about) If not, what would be an appropriate title? Selfstudier (talk) 17:52, 20 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

RFC before: RM of 27 October 2021 proposing the move

Palestinian citizens of Israel
.

Subsequently, the article

Palestinian citizens of Israel was spun out. Then the recently concluded Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Palestinian citizens of Israel
found a consensus to merge it back to this article.

The subsequent RM proposing a change to Palestinian Arab citizens of Israel was closed as no consensus.

#Requested move 16 April 2024 proposing Arab citizens of Israel → Palestinian and Arab citizens of Israel appears likely to conclude as not moved. Selfstudier (talk) 17:52, 20 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Survey

Appropriateness of the Identity “Palestinian Arab in Israel” to Arabs, Arabs, 2003, 2012–2019 (Percentages)
2003 2012 2013 2015 2017 2019
62.2 63.8 64.4 63.2 71.8 65.9
We are imposing on a people an identity they do not accept themselves, and we are doing so largely on the backs of the views of the state that has been accused by a number of human rights organizations of committing human rights violations up to and including apartheid against that population. I dont find that remotely "neutral", regardless of how "neutral" is defined, be it the Wikipedia way or that of a dictionary. nableezy - 01:48, 11 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion

Example sourcing:

...what label should be attached to them? Much more than merely semantics is at stake. how one chooses to identify the Arab minority in Israel is often indicative of one’s politics. Supporters of Israel generally refer to the Arab community in Israel as "Israeli Arabs" or "Arab Israelis" – using the terms commonly used by Israeli governments, the Hebrew-language media in Israel, and most Israeli Jews. Critics of Israel, by contrast, tend to describe Israel’s Arab citizens simply as Palestinians or Palestinian Arabs. in doing so, they emphasize the Palestinian national identity of the Arab population in Israel and clearly reject the Israeli state’s longstanding avoidance of that label. Which, if any, of these names is correct? Are Arabs in Israel "Israeli Arabs" or "Palestinian Arabs"? Are they Israelis or Palestinians? Ilan Peleg; Dov Waxman (2011). Israel's Palestinians: The Conflict Within (illustrated ed.). Cambridge University Press. p. 26.

ISBN 978-0-521-15702-5.

Selfstudier (talk) 17:54, 20 April 2024 (UTC)[reply

]

A study of loanwords and code switching in spoken and online written Arabic by Palestinian Israelis (pp. 4-5)(2019)]: "In this dissertation I use the term Palestinian Israelis to refer to Palestinian Arabs who are citizens of Israel. The issue of naming this group of people is controversial, and there are many debates and arguments when it comes to how to introduce them and what to call their dialect of Arabic. [...] In addition, according to Peleg and Waxman (2011, pp. 27-28), Palestinian Israeli society has undergone “Palestinization” since the year 1967, whereby the national consciousness has spread, and Palestinian Israelis have increasingly refused Israeli-Arab identity. [...] According to Peleg and Waxman (2011), however, both “Palestinization” and “Israelization” can take place simultaneously and reinforce each other; they are not essentially paradoxical. The authors assert that “Arabs in Israel, especially younger generations, have become more Palestinian in their self-identity, and at the same time they have been deeply influenced by Israeli culture – a process of acculturation” (p. 28). Lauer (2007) shares Peleg and Waxman’s (2011) view and declares that identifying as a Palestinian does not necessarily require rejecting Israeli citizenship or avoiding Israeli culture. In this dissertation, I adopt the perspective of Lauer, Peleg, and Waxman. Accordingly, I consider Palestinian Israelis a suitable label for this group, as it reflects their dual identity." Selfstudier (talk) 13:28, 21 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • Arab-Israeli self-identification is diverse. It significantly varies between different polls and significantly varies year-by-year. For example, in here: https://jppi.org.il/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/2020-Index-English.pdf, in 2019, 5% of Arab-Israelis identified as Israeli, but in 2020, 23% identified as Israeli. Noah 💬 21:54, 20 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Arab-Israelis" and "Arab citizens of Israel" is the terminology overwhelmingly used in reliable sources False, see Ngram here Selfstudier (talk) 22:15, 20 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    False, adding up the Ngrams of "Arab-Israelis," "Arab Israelis," etc. far outweighs "Palestinian citizens of Israel," see here Terms in this vein are used approximately 70% more than the terms you are proposing. Noah 💬 22:23, 20 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Again false, merely add "Palestinian Arabs" to see why here And there are other possibilities, Palestinian Israelis for example which gets nearly as many as Arab citizens of Israel on its own. In any case, whichever combos get chosen, the trends since 1980 or thereabouts is clear. Selfstudier (talk) 22:32, 20 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Arab-Israelis are a subset of "Palestinian Arabs," and when the media refers to "Palestinian Arabs" that can and does mean a whole host of different things. I think you clearly know this.
    Nonwithstanding:
    The terms that specifically refer to Palestinians add up to approximately 8.7*10^-6.
    The terms that specifically refer to Arabs add up to approximately 12.9*10^-6
    Thus, terms that specifically refer to Arabs are used approximately 50% more than terms that specifically refer to Palestinians.
    As you previously stated, there is a clear upward trend towards referring to Arab-Israelis as Palestinians. However, this does not change the fact that terms that specifically refer to Arabs are used 50% more often than terms that specifically refer to Palestinians. Noah 💬 00:25, 21 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Ngrams include many sources that are not
    WP:RS. One cannot demonstrate "overwhelmingly used in reliable sources" by pointing to Ngrams. Levivich (talk) 01:04, 21 April 2024 (UTC)[reply
    ]
    Selfstudier was the one who brought up Ngrams in the first place. Noah 💬 03:25, 21 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    In response to "Arab-Israelis" and "Arab citizens of Israel" is the terminology overwhelmingly used in reliable sources, for which zero evidence was provided. Selfstudier (talk) 10:38, 21 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Why are all the answers to this RfC backwards? The question is "Is the current title NPOV?" and the first answer is "Yes The current title is Israeli POV". Number 57 13:16, 21 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    ) Selfstudier (talk) 13:26, 21 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    lol that's true. Maybe we should change the RfC question to "not NPOV" to match the votes. Levivich (talk) 14:43, 21 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment On the identity question, here are sources

Long overlooked, Israel’s Arab citizens are increasingly asserting their Palestinian identity (WAPO 2021) "In just the past month, Palestinian citizens of Israel — also known as Israeli Arabs..."·

"Those who stayed, and their descendants, were dubbed "Israeli Arabs" by the nascent Jewish state, which uses the term to this day.

"But surveys show that the people that term is meant to describe favor "Palestinian citizens of Israel,""

"Scholars who study the issue say that preference for an explicit recognition of Palestinian identity has grown with time, especially in the past two decades. It is particularly strong, they say, among younger generations who did not experience the trauma of Israel’s birth — to Palestinians, the “Nakba,” or catastrophe."

Riots Shatter Veneer of Coexistence in Israel’s Mixed Towns (NYT)

"The people most Israelis have long referred to as “Israeli Arabs” — or colloquially by the demeaning “Arab sector” — now often self-identify as Palestinians, a term many Israeli Jews resent, viewing it as a rejection of Israel."

"Always a hybrid community — Israeli by citizenship, Palestinian by heritage, Muslim or Christian or Druze in religion, bilingual in Arabic and Hebrew, viewed with suspicion by some diaspora Palestinians, scarred by the trauma of their compatriots’ expulsion — they developed a sharper sense of Palestinian identity even as their demands for full rights as Israeli citizens grew."

Why Are Israelis Scared of Palestinian Identity? (Haaretz)

"Research and surveys consistently show that the Arab mainstream in Israel identifies as Palestinian; in particular, elected Arab leaders identify as Palestinian."

Palestine’s Emerging National Movement: "Questions On My Mind" (Carnegie)

"Indeed, social media provided the venue for Palestinian activists to insist on dropping “Oslo vocabulary” and refrain from calling Palestinians “Arab Israelis,” a label the state deliberately uses to erase Palestinian identity for those within Israel’s borders (because it would seem to deny their specifically Palestinian identity and links with Palestinian communities elsewhere)."

Selfstudier (talk) 13:49, 21 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The quotes you provided do not provide data about Arab-Israeli self-identification. I provided data which shows that by 2020, 51% of Arab-Israelis explicitly identified as Arab-Israeli or simply "Arab" over Palestinian. Noah 💬 21:36, 21 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Here's Reuters in 2023 "Most Arab citizens in Israel are descendants of Palestinians who stayed in the new Israeli state after a 1948 war. Largely self-identifying as Palestinian, they have long pondered their place in politics, balancing their heritage with Israeli nationality." Selfstudier (talk) 21:46, 21 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Once again, Reuters does not cite a source for their claim that they largely self-identify as Palestinian. Noah 💬 21:48, 21 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Correct, I am citing Reuters for the claim. Selfstudier (talk) 21:51, 21 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
And here I am citing Cfr as of October 2023 What to Know About the Arab Citizens of Israel "Israeli government documents and media refer to Arab citizens as “Arabs” or “Israeli Arabs,” and some Arabs use those terms themselves. Global news media usually use similar phrasing to distinguish these residents from Arabs who live in the Palestinian territories. Most members of this community self-identify as "Palestinian citizens of Israel," and some identify just as “Palestinian” to indicate their rejection of Israeli identity. Others prefer to be referred to as Arab citizens of Israel for various reasons. The phrase is used in this Backgrounder, as it represents the current political and legal reality." Selfstudier (talk) 21:56, 21 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
And here the FT as of December 2023 "In the other corner, the 2mn Arab-Israelis, most of whom identify as Palestinians and are sympathetic to the decades-old Palestinian cause, have been outraged by the death and destruction caused by Israel’s bombardment of Gaza." Selfstudier (talk) 22:04, 21 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
And round it off with the NYT as of October 2023 Palestinian Citizens of Israel Are Wary, Weary and Afraid "Arab citizens of Israel, many of whom want to be identified as Palestinians, make up some 18 percent of the population. They have been caught for years between their loyalty to the state and their desire for an end to the Israeli occupation of Palestinian lands, the creation of an independent Palestine and a better life for themselves." Selfstudier (talk) 22:21, 21 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Might as well throw in the Guardian as of October 2023 as well, Arabs in Israel face reprisals over online solidarity with Gaza "Israeli Arabs, many of whom identify as Palestinian citizens of Israel, have expressed solidarity with Palestinians in Gaza amid Israel’s aerial bombing campaign" Selfstudier (talk) 09:49, 22 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Further to the discussion above, here is a deep dive of Manna 2022 quotes:

Manna 2022 quotes

ISBN 978-0-520-38936-6
.

  • p. xv: "The Palestinians in Israel did not have universities or research institutions that could tackle these and other important issues."
  • p. 2: "This book also renews the investigation of issues which are disputed by researchers, and not confined solely to the history of Palestinians in Israel"
  • p. 3: "But little has been written concerning the actions of Israeli authorities in the early 1950s against many of the Palestinians who remained and whom it tried to expel as infiltrators. Like most published studies on the 1948 war that ignored the fate of the “remainers,” studies on the “border wars” also ignored the consequences for the Arabs in Israel from 1949 to 1956."
  • p. 4: "This study offers a new and different reading of the history of Arabs in Israel from their own perspective, based on Arabic sources to which researchers have rarely paid attention."
  • p. 5: "The second context for the history of Palestinians in Israel is the Arab world. Until 1948, the Palestinians who remained in Israel were considered an organic part of the Palestinian people and the Arab world in general, but the Nakba isolated them from their people and the neighboring Arab states."
  • p. 6: "This research study is based on the argument that the war period was the real beginning of the history of the Palestinian minority in the Jewish state, the details of which are absent from most of the historical literature about the circumstances of Palestinians in Israel."
  • p. 11: "In the early 1950s, many statements by the leaders of the Jewish state were published to the effect that the fate of Arabs in Israel was not yet decided ... In general, the 1956 events showed that Palestinians in Israel had learned the lesson of the Nakba, and became a resilient and permanent part of the population."
  • p. 12: "As for the Palestinians in Israel, the Arab boycott of the Zionist entity was a barrier that disrupted the possibility of attending to what had befallen them ... It may be surprising that Arab academics who were themselves among the Palestinians who remained paid scarce attention to the history of the Nakba and its consequences for them. However, that surprise dissipates once we realize that this remnant of the Palestinian people produced only a few historians, most of whom stayed far away from chronicling the Nakba and its results. Furthermore, the Arabs in Israel are without a university or research institution with a strong interest in history. Consequently, this double marginalization and fear of unearthing sensitive and complicated matters relating to the 1948 war led them to distance themselves from the subject."
  • p. 13: "Following the establishment of a number of Palestinian institutions for study and research in Beirut, some researchers began to devote attention to the Palestinians in Israel, drawn first to the poetry of resistance and the maintaining of the Arab identity of the population of the Galilee. In the mid-1960s, resistance poets such as Mahmoud Darwish, Samih al-Qasim, and others became popularized and expressions of admiration came from Beirut and Cairo and other Arab capitals; some raised their voices in praise of the steadfastness of the Arabs in Israel and their adherence to their Arab identity."
  • p. 15: "Interest in the conditions of Arabs in Israel increased considerably in the 1980s ... In 1949: The First Israelis Tom Segev, contrary to the practice in much of this literature, allocates an appropriate place to the Arabs who remained in Israel,18 not just in terms of the number of pages dedicated to the conditions of Arabs in Israel during 1948–49, but in exposing the policy of systematic repression and harassment of this minority ... Following these, Arab and Jewish researchers published studies on the Arabs in Israel and the treatment doled out to them since 1948."
  • p. 16: "Two of these, Ahmad Sa‘di and Nur Masalha, specialize in the Palestinian Nakba and its effects on the lives of Arabs in Israel during the 1950s and have contributed, separately, a number of important studies on this subject. ... Their studies are excellent models for documenting and chronicling forgotten aspects of the history of Palestinians in Israel. Hillel Cohen is a prolific Israeli researcher who has published a significant number of books and articles on the Arabs in Israel. He devoted his master’s thesis to the study of 'The Present Absentees.'"
  • p. 20: "This thought kept returning to me at the beginning of my study of the history of Arabs in Israel after the Nakba."
  • p. 47: "Prominent among them was Sayf al-Din al-Zu‘bi, whom Israel set up as a leader of the Arabs in Israel after its establishment, as a reward for his services."
  • p. 53: "The history of Arabs in Israel begins with the “gentle manner” in which Nazareth was occupied, and the cooperation of its city leaders with the military governor and the Israeli government."
  • p. 56: "Indeed, the seventy thousand Palestinians who were counted in the survey of Israel at that time were the nucleus or the beating heart of the Arabs in Israel."
  • p. 131: "In 1950 in one cabinet meeting discussion on the issue of the Arabs in Israel and the refugee question, Ben-Gurion declared frankly: 'Of course we should not allow 600,000 to return; not even 600.' ... This sort of resistance has been studied and illuminated in the specialized literature on the history of Arabs in Israel, but other less organized and quieter forms of local steadfastness and resistance have not been discussed, invisible to the eyes of the researchers."
  • p. 198: "As we saw in previous chapters, the army and other Israeli institutions did what was in their power to reduce the number of Palestinians in Israel as far as possible."
  • p. 218: "One important work of research on the relationship between the law and the judicial system in Israel and Arab citizens was Alina Korn’s doctoral dissertation at Hebrew University which showed clearly how the law and the judicial system were activated by state institutions to serve the system of monitoring and control over Palestinians in Israel."
  • p. 228: "Ben-Gurion’s reply to the proposals of the leaders of Maki in general, and Tubi in particular, was that their position did not represent the opinion of Israeli Arabs."
  • p. 233: "The communists contributed to obscuring the Palestinian identity of the remaining Arabs and promoted in its place the government’s line about 'the Arab minority,' 'the Arabs in Israel,' or even 'the Israeli Arabs.'"
  • p. 239: "Overall, Maki won 28 percent of the votes of Arabs in Israel."
  • p. 261: "Indeed Maki’s discourse in 1957 drew closer to nationalist thought, which was evident in the resolutions of the party’s thirteenth congress.118 What had been said at the congress—that the Arabs in Israel were an inseparable part of the Palestinian people, and an affirmation of this people’s 'right to self-determination, even separation'—had crossed a red line in the view of Israeli intelligence, and represented a revolution in the positions the party had adopted since 1948."
  • p. 269: "Most of the published studies and research on Arabs in Israel center on the policies of the government and its institutions towards the Arab minority."
  • p. 270: "One mechanism that the authorities used to try to reengineer the national consciousness of Arabs in Israel was to make them participate in the Independence Day festivities."
  • p. 290 n. 2: "Israeli researchers, with Morris at their head, estimate that the number of Arabs who were killed in the 'border wars' and labeled as 'infiltrators' was between three and five thousand individuals. This study demonstrates that tens, if not hundreds, of them were 'Israeli Arabs.'"
  • p. 290 n. 3: " Morris, who devoted serious study to the Israeli war on “infiltration” by Palestinian refugees, treated it as a fight to protect Israel’s borders from the neighboring Arab countries, without devoting much attention to its repercussions and daily impact on the lives of Arabs in Israel."
  • p. 305 n. 19: "There is a rich literature in this field in the form of political and social theories critical of the diminished form of citizenship for Arabs in Israel."

It seems to me he uses both "Palestinians in Israel" and "Arabs in Israel," recognizing that the former is a subset of the latter. He does not really use "Israeli Palestinians" or "Arab Israelis." On page 233 (quoted in the box above) is where he talks about "obscuring the Palestinian identity of the remaining Arabs" by the use of terms like "Arabs in Israel" and "Israeli Arabs" (yet he uses the former multiple times throughout the book as quoted in the box above). Levivich (talk) 00:29, 22 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • 1) Shouldn't this be an RM instead of an RFC, since it is asking to change the title? 2) The RFC question can be paraphrased as "is the current title neutral?", yet it seems like folks are responding yes/no to this question in an opposite manner. –Novem Linguae (talk) 03:26, 22 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    All the answers are the other way about so no problem but since all the answers are reversed, I edited to read POV instead of NPOV. The problem with prior RMs has been covered in the RFC before (contradictory closes (yes, it is PCI and no it isn't, and simply ignoring any neutrality issues in others) so a need for a wider and more in depth discussion. It is isn't asking to change the title as such, since one outcome is that it is NPOV and no change required and only if it is not, then suggestions for an appropriate title. There might need to be another RM following. Selfstudier (talk) 09:28, 22 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    It is pretty silly seeing comments here that assert that the current title is not POV given that we have literal sources on the page clearly stating that it is the Israeli government's terminology and POV, and sources from as early as 1999 stating that those categorised under the term were increasingly at odds with it. So that it's POV is actually a sourced quality, not a purely subjective one, while the claim that it is NPOV is unevidenced. A better argument in defence of the current title might be that it's a
    Iskandar323 (talk) 15:09, 23 April 2024 (UTC)[reply
    ]

The recent merge

The current difficulties arise by virtue of the recent merge of

Palestinian citizens of Israel
into this article. The close said

"While there's no consensus that the article is a POVFORK, all seem to agree that there's a fair amount of content overlap between the two articles, even if the two population groups are not identical. This is a key criterion under WP:MERGE. Once we discard the views that are based on the "not the exact same population group" argument, we are left with a policy-based consensus to merge"

However, this argument is reversible, the merge could just as easily have been carried out in the other direction with the same logic. It was done that way because the editor proposing the merge asked for it, forcefully arguing (and editing) that there was no difference between PCI and ACI (which may well be true if one excludes the Druze). Selfstudier (talk) 12:38, 23 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Merge was a mistake. I don't even agree that "merge" was the consensus of that AFD. In any event, since that AFD closed, I think something like 30+ new (as in not previously considered) sources, academic and news media, all modern (as in last five years or at least 21st century), have been analyzed/quoted by various editors here, which is grounds for revisiting the merge. If this article stays titled/scoped as "Arabs in Israel" it seems there are plenty of sources to support a separate child article specifically about "Palestinians in Israel". Levivich (talk) 17:00, 28 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That last was my thought too. Selfstudier (talk) 17:02, 28 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure merge was the consensus either. Is a review in order?
Iskandar323 (talk) 17:03, 28 April 2024 (UTC)[reply
]
I thought about DRV but was hesitant because of the passage of time and now there's an RM and an RFC. Levivich (talk) 19:49, 28 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Agree, get all the relevant stuff out on the table in one place, the better to decide a course of action. Selfstudier (talk) 20:09, 28 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Levivich, I agree that much of the media has switched usage and there is greater consensus that "PCI" is the preferred term by PCIs themselves, instead of "'48 Arabs" or "Israeli Arabs". However, I still insist that there is little to no evidence that separate articles are warranted for "ACI"s and "PCIs". Articles are not about what terms mean, that's what a dictionary is for. Articles are about "a people". In this case the two terms ACI and PCI refer in 99%+ of cases to the exact same group of people, similar to "black" vs. "African-American" in the US refer to exactly the same group of people. The Druze are PCI, too (i.e. descended from the non-Jewish residents of Palestine in 1947) even if they don't prefer the term PCI. Really the only ACIs that are not PCIs are a few thousand Lebanese, a few tens of thousands Golanis (as they are descended from Syrian citizens), or the odd unique case of non-Jewish immigrants from other Arab countries (if there even are any). Those exceptions can be handled with a brief mention in the "terminology" part of the article. It should be one article and in my opinion it should be under the name of the preference of the people themselves, which is now majority "PCI".Keizers (talk) 21:57, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
One PCI article makes sense to me. Levivich (talk) 01:20, 11 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Source Issues


−
According to several sources, the majority of Arabs in Israel now prefer to be identified as Palestinian citizens of Israel
+
According to several sources, a large number of Arabs in Israel now prefer to be identified as Palestinian citizens of Israel

The provides sources overall do not support the original wording. The first source marked 8 does mention a majority but provides no citation or statistics and is also from 2012 and far less reliable than more current ones. The second source marked 9 references another article. The third source marked 10 uses the same article as the second. The referenced source [1] uses the numbers 30% and 17% which totals 47% or a minority not majority. The source is from 2019 and references a 2017 study. So if there are any newer sources they should be considered first.

Not done. There is an ongoing discussion about this and other issues on this talk page and it is indeed the case that many sources do say a majority even if those are not as yet included in the article. Selfstudier (talk) 17:15, 30 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/01/18/palestinian-in-israel/

Factchecker170 (talk) 17:05, 30 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Update Druze in Israel Citizenship Statistic

Under the heading: East Jerusalem and Golan Heights

−
The remaining [[Druze in Israel#Status and position of Golan Heights Druze|Druze population of the Golan Heights]], occupied and administered by Israel in 1967, are considered permanent residents under Isr'aels [[Golan Heights Law]] of 1981. Few have accepted full Israeli citizenship and the vast majority consider themselves citizens of [[Syria]].
+
The remaining [[Druze in Israel#Status and position of Golan Heights Druze|Druze population of the Golan Heights]], occupied and administered by Israel in 1967, are considered permanent residents under Israel's [[Golan Heights Law]] of 1981. By 2017, nearly 5,500 out of 26,500 residents had applied for and received an Israeli passport since 1981. The vast majority consider themselves citizens of [[Syria]].


The proposed change comes verbatim from the Druze in Israel article and clarifies the term "few" from the original version.

The source cited in Druze in Israel is "This Ethnic Minority in Israel Still Swears Allegiance to Syria. But for Many Young People That's Changing.", Haaretz.

More detail is contained in the Druze in Israel paragraph that may be of interest, but I tried to keep the original sentence's brevity.

"After the annexation of the Golan Heights in 1981, the Israeli government offered

Israeli citizenship – a much larger number than in previous years. By 2017, nearly 5,500 out of 26,500 residents had applied for and received an Israeli passport since 1981. The yearly number of applications steadily rose, with 183 applying in 2016, compared to only five in 2000." ShortfallOfGravitas (talk) 20:40, 5 May 2024 (UTC)[reply
]

Not done. This article is for Arab citizens of Israel and the Golan Heights is not part of Israel. Selfstudier (talk) 22:14, 5 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

1. The subsection this is under, East Jerusalem and Golan Heights, is already included in the article. An existing term is clarified, no new point is introduced.
2. The article, as you say, is about Arab citizens of Israel. The sentence being discussed here is about a group of Arabs accepting or abstaining from citizenship of Israel in territory it currently administers/occupies. About 20% of the Druze are in fact Arab citizens of Israel. ShortfallOfGravitas (talk) 23:01, 5 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I changed the sentence to read "As of mid 2022, 4303 Druze citizens of Syria have been granted Israeli citizenship" together with an updated reference. Selfstudier (talk) 10:34, 6 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Including "Palestinian citizens of Israel" as one of the variants at the start of the article; and correcting a related error

Each of the terms is an imperfect descriptor, but there are several sources (cited in the third sentence of the article's introduction) which suggest that the majority of this community prefer to refer to themselves as "Palestinian citizens of Israel"; this descriptor, if not used as the title of the article, should at least be one of the terms listed in the parentheses with alternate variants in the first sentence.

Separately, there is an error further down the page that should be corrected: in the section "Terminology and identity", under the subheading "Demonym preferences", there is a sentence that contradicts the source that it cites (source 43: https://www.kas.de/c/document_library/get_file?uuid=0e141dca-8ac4-a77f-7045-f3a7d4c30991&groupId=252038). The sentence is: "However, these findings conflict with a 2017 Tel Aviv University poll which showed most Israelis self-identify as either Arab-Israeli or simply Israeli." There are several important errors here. First, the source poll doesn't use the terms "Israeli Arab" or "Arab Israeli", instead using "Arab in Israel / Arab citizen of Israel", which is the category a plurality of respondents preferred (p 22). Likewise, contrary to the assertion in the sentence from the current Wikipedia entry, the proportion who identified as simply "Israeli" was the only the third most common choice after "Arab in Israel / Arab citizen of Israel" and "Palestinian" (p 22). Additionally, regarding the focus groups conducted separately from individual polling, the source notes: "The designation 'Israeli-Arab' aroused great opposition" (p 28), and, "The designation 'Arab citizens of Israel' was acceptable to them ... Conversely, the participants spoke out against the designation 'Arab-Israeli'" (p 25). Hyacinth house (talk) 06:02, 15 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Duplication in "1949-1966" section

The sentence "Travel permits, curfews, administrative detentions, and expulsions were part of life until 1966." is unnecessarily repeated twice. It exists both in sentence 3 of paragraph 2, and the end of paragraph 2. Redbeansoup (talk) 08:41, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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